For those who occasionally stomach my crappy and sporadic blog posts, but don't have facebook, their was a brief discussion about the appropriateness of a mosque being constructed near the ruins of the World Trade Center. I urge everyone to participate in this dialogue as it is vital to our moral progress.
**DISCLAIMER** MORAL PROGRESS: It is good to give someone a hug. It is NOT good to behead someone based on your "supernaturally" derived doctrinal directives. Alliteration is good. It is NOT good to worship a violent doctrine, but call yourself a peaceful religion.
Below is a transcript of the online discussion started by the Artificial Intelligent simply known as, "Brain." But first, here is a picture that proves we can all get along:
In order of intelligence: oh shit.. um.. don't think I can categorize these guys by intelligence. From left to right: Joseph Smith, Buddha, Jebus and Muhammad. (Note how they are all getting along).--------------------------------------------------------------
Brain:
A mosque 600 ft from Ground Zero, are you fucking kidding me?? BRB...I'm going to go erect a Hooters next to the Dome of the Rock, I'm sure the Islamic faithful will have no problem with that.
Girl:
We shouldn't punish a whole religion of people because the actions of a very small group of people. It's like the man who attacked me on the el telling me I had no right to be in America because my people bombed Pearl Harbor (ha moron, I'm Koean - but that is besides the point) and the man who attacked me on the steet yelling "you killed my uncle ... See Morein Korea!!!!!" I would hope that I there will come a time that I and everyone else in the world is no longer judged simply by their race/religion or the actions of a few crazies (example for white people: the KKK).
Brain:
I have no sympathy for the followers of a religion that preaches the destruction of everything we hold dear.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace, their prophet was a militant who killed over 3,000 people.
Just a few "peaceful" passages from the Quran below... tell me you want the followers of this religion anywhere in our country, let alone Ground Zero.
Quran 4:89: "They (infidels) desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."
Quran 8:12: "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers;"
Quran 2:191: "... kill the disbelievers wherever we find them …"
Quran 22:19-22: "… for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."
Quran 8:12: "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"
Quran 8:7: "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'" Quran 8:59: "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Quran 8:60: "Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you."
Quran 9.29" "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Quran 47:4: "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers" and, after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."
Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985): "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'"
Quran 9:5: "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Sura 3:151: "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!"
Sura 8:60: "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you and ye shall not be treated unjustly." Tabari IX:113: "Allah permits you to shut them (women) in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Quran."
Tabari I:280: "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
Ishaq:327: "Allah said, 'A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion."
Girl:
Everyone knows I'm not a fan of any organized religion in general. I just believe in respecting humanity. I could paste the whole bible, any bible, here and it would be filled with all kinds of nonsense that is good for no one. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :) Have a fantastic weekend! Can't wait to see the kitties at Kims!
Me:
Anyone who says or thinks Islam is a peaceful religion is patently ignorant and so pumped with "tolerance" that they rob themselves of any and all intellectual credibility.
For those who claim they are peaceful Muslims and Islam is a peaceful religion, they 1) are bad followers of their own religion as you can tell from the aforementioned ... See Morepassages 2) need to omit those passages and print new doctrinal hardcopies, which really just voids their current religion and creates a whole new mythology and 3) need to come out and speak LOUD against the violent rhetoric and horrific murders being carried out all over the world against all "non-believers" (which they aren't doing.. and if they are.. it's not LOUD enough).
You can be a compassionate progressive, such as ourselves, without giving violent mythologies a free-pass from any type of justified critiques. Even Christianity, in terms of a doctrine, is arguably just as violent as Islam, and for those of you who disagree, in my next post I will repeat all of the lovely passages that advocate genocide, gang-rape of minors, slavery, intolerance, etc etc etc. Just because most Christians don't preach violence doesn't mean they once did not do this, as history dictates. Christianity is just an older religion and fortunately the brightness of reason has cut through and diminished that violence and ignorance over the centuries. It's tragic how people somehow derive THEIR moral authority from these writings.
Erecting a mosque next to the site where 3,000 civilians were killed in the name of Allah and preaching the same violent doctrine the 19 hijackers used to justify this genocide... well in OUR world we protect this type of behavior because that is the civilized, moral action that we concluded through millenia of trial and error through evolution... but next time I'm in the area, don't be surprised if I eat a bunch of greasy Sbarro and take a steaming hot shit on top of your new shiny mosque.
Girl:
There were millions of people killed during th Christian Crusades in the name of Christianity and millions before and after including specific events towards Jews, Heretics, Native Americans, Africans, the Vietnamese, and the list goes on and on. These actions were done by everyday Christians in the name of "god", not even close to the radical muslims involved in the twin towers tragedy. You don't see anyone attacking churches, do you? Oh wait, yeah, the KKK burns them cuz the church happens to be filled with black people. If we judged whole groups of people by the actions of a few - we would live in a pretty intolerant world with very few of the freedoms that we all enjoy - espeically this crazy freedom of speech thing.
Me:
"These actions were done by everyday Christians in the name of "god", not even close to the radical muslims involved in the twin towers tragedy."
So you're saying there is a false equivalency with christian and islamic violence? I'm sure quantifiably they are different, but analogously they are the exact same in terms of violence. I completely ... See Moreagree that there are a few "bad apples" in a world full of relatively peaceful muslims. When I was in Iran most people I came across were either cultural muslims or at least "public" muslims in order not to risk indefinite detainment without habeous corpus. Now these people were mostly educated, but my point is that if you look at the current islamic theocracies or pseudo-theocracies such as iran, saudi arabia, afghanistan, jordan, bahrain, etc., you will see a very concrete causatory relationship with violence (particularly against woman) and islam.
We should never judge a whole group by just a few, that is obviously the sign of an advanced, civilized species; however, when the vast majority of a peaceful group bases their life around a violent doctrine and doesn't come out and LOUDLY, publicly decry the violence of their few, they are doing a disservice to themselves and insulting the rest of us.
As a quasi-pacifist I never advocate violence or even the defacing (with feces) really anything. My comment about the sbarro-induced flaming poo was merely a facetious parallel to highlight the incongruities of constructing a mosque based on a violent doctrine next to the 9/11 site. Freedom (reasonable freedoms not unrealistic childish libertarian freedoms) is the most important aspect of our country, but a little compassion is prudent occasionally as well. Until I see these mosque leaders hold multiple press conferences, advertisements, release statements decrying violence toward anyone in the name of islam, even against satirists who draw muhammad, I will continue to view this situation as insulting and absurd.
My point was that from a doctrinal standpoint, both islam and christianity are incredibly violent religions; this is indisputable.
Boy:
This is why religion is evil
Girl:
exactly!
Brain:
I'm sure there's plenty of "peaceful" Muslims out there, cherry-picking what parts of the Quran they're going to adhere to and ignoring that part about killing the infidels, but are they even Muslim in the first place?
As Jake pointed out, when you remove certain parts of the holy text you create an entirely new mythology all together. I've ... See Morealways found it strange to refer to suicide bombers and their ilk as "radical" or "extreme." I think a much more accurate description would be PRACTICING MUSLIMS.
No matter how you try to defend these "peaceful" Muslims, the fact remains that their instruction manual for life, the Quran, basically beats you over the head with the mantra, "KILL THE NON-BELIEVERS." I'd like to believe that most humans would realize that killing someone because they don't believe in your deity is completely fucking stupid, unfortunately, this is not the case. Christianity's been around longer than Islam and, for the most part, Christians have stopped murdering non-believers (even though the Bible instructs them to do so). I can only hope that in another 700 years, Muslims will do the same.
Until then, Islam remains very dangerous and every mosque that pops up only causes their numbers to swell and unfortunately for us, there's no disclaimer in the Quran that reads: "Just ignore all that stuff about beheading infidels, spreading fear, owning slaves and degrading women."
Me:
I'm going to assume since no one else is chiming in here everyone on facebook agrees with Jakemon and Brainba. Come on... won't someone continue the debate...?!
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